quote:

Originally posted by Max:
Minnesota didn't think enough of Brohm or Henne to take them. They ended up drafting a lesser prospect in Booty. He'll probably suck too, but as you say, since Garrard was a fourth and Brady a sixth, maybe he'll be just fine. I mean, doesn't your argument about lesser picks work just as well for the chances of him panning out?

Max

You made many excellent points yesterday, but I'm only going to "quote" this part, to add to the point that I believe you're trying to make.

Had MN drafted either Brohm or Henne with their 2nd round pick, would either of them have been a quality NFL starter in 2008? Probably not. Would they be a quality NFL starter in 2009? One can speculate, but who knows? Same answer to if either one will ever be a quality NFL QB.

Aaron Rodgers was drafted in the first round 3 seasons ago, and has yet to start an NFL game. Will AR be a quality NFL starter? No one knows after 3 years. He may be, but no one really knows.

JaMarcus Russell was the #1 overall draft choice for a team that didn't have a decent QB last season. Oakland actually started both Duante Culpepper and Josh McCown ahead of their #1 pick. Russell did start 1 game and sucked. He may be great down the road.

If the VIKINGS were going to have a better QB in 2008 than Jackson, it wasn't coming from the draft.

Those that want to can fault the VIKINGS for not signing a veteran FA QB to replace Jackson if they choose, but faulting them for not drafting a QB in the second round is just nonsense.

I don't fault the vikings for doing dumb things,

I count on it.

quote:

Originally posted by The Champ:

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
Minnesota didn't think enough of Brohm or Henne to take them. They ended up drafting a lesser prospect in Booty. He'll probably suck too, but as you say, since Garrard was a fourth and Brady a sixth, maybe he'll be just fine. I mean, doesn't your argument about lesser picks work just as well for the chances of him panning out?

Max

You made many excellent points yesterday, but I'm only going to "quote" this part, to add to the point that I believe you're trying to make.

Had MN drafted either Brohm or Henne with their 2nd round pick, would either of them have been a quality NFL starter in 2008? Probably not. Would they be a quality NFL starter in 2009? One can speculate, but who knows? Same answer to if either one will ever be a quality NFL QB.

Aaron Rodgers was drafted in the first round 3 seasons ago, and has yet to start an NFL game. Will AR be a quality NFL starter? No one knows after 3 years. He may be, but no one really knows.

JaMarcus Russell was the #1 overall draft choice for a team that didn't have a decent QB last season. Oakland actually started both Duante Culpepper and Josh McCown ahead of their #1 pick. Russell did start 1 game and sucked. He may be great down the road.

If the VIKINGS were going to have a better QB in 2008 than Jackson, it wasn't coming from the draft.

Those that want to can fault the VIKINGS for not signing a veteran FA QB to replace Jackson if they choose, but faulting them for not drafting a QB in the second round is just nonsense.

You know, Max had successfully defended your team. Why did you have destroy his argument?

Tito had an 8 - 4 record last year so there. I mean what has Orton and Grobesman done for the Bears besides doing the things required to win.

Hey "erik" the strawman...didn't Grossman win games where he had 5 TO's such as the "we knew who we thought they were" game? Crappy QB's can win games they don't deserve to win but that does not mean they are good.

What's with the Queens LT and the Commish having lunch together? Is the Commish looking for a bouncer at the next owners meeting?

quote:

Originally posted by The Champ:

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:

quote:

Originally posted by Erik T. Redman:
Your perception of how Viking Fans think and act is quite hilarious.

Glad you got us all figured out.

I lived in, or around, the area for most of my life and many of my friends were Viking fans.

I think you may have made a bigger comment about the intelligence of your choices in friends than the type of fans the VIKINGS have.

You can make all the generalizations you want, and preach total doom or gloom for the VIKINGS. I know, that's your god given right as a Packer fan.

But if you take most of the claims you've made on this thread about how poorly the VIKINGS will do this coming year and insert the word Packers for VIKINGS your chances of being correct are probably the close to the same.

Both teams have changed. What we don't know yet is will those changes improve the respective teams.

That's why they play the games.

Yes, my friends were idiots. One of them is a multi-millionaire and the other runs a bank. One of the two was class valedictorian. Very bright guys but idiotic Viking fans. All my other Viking friends were intelligent and are doing well for themselves.

I, for one, think the Vikes will rue the day they passed on Brian Brohm. I was certain that trade up in Round 2 was for Brian Brohm. I was stunned to see a safety from Arkansas State instead of Brohm. The list of 2nd round failures at QB can't really be argued against. I'm pleased they continue to believe in Tarvaris Jackson. That is an ego thing with Coach BTK.

As for Texas and people with big egos...I have to agree...but the pride in their state is real. If you haven't lived here you wouldn't know. I hope to move back to Wis/Min next year. Hopefully, in the spring or summer not the other 6 miserable months out of the year.

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I, for one, think the Vikes will rue the day they passed on Brian Brohm. ... The list of 2nd round failures at QB can't really be argued against. I'm pleased they continue to believe in Tarvaris Jackson.

I trust you see the contradiction here.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
CJS, what is the big deal with the Vikings "passing on Brohm or Henne"? They were taken at the bottom of the second round, same as the immortal Tarvaris Jackson. The odds of either guy being a successful NFL quarterback are slim. Every team in the NFL passed on both guys once and sometimes twice. Not all of those teams needed quarterbacks, but certainly some did and would have taken them sooner if they were anything close to sure things. Are they better prospects than Booty, absolutely, but I would be no more concerned about the Vikings if they'd taken one of them. Maybe they passed on them because they think the guy they took in the second is going to be a really good NFL player and neither of those quarterbacks will be. And they certainly might be right.

I'm not going to argue whether the Vikings brass liked Brohm/Henne or not, because if they had liked one of them, they would have taken one of them... or at least one would *think* they would have. However, your logic that the historical odds for QB's in the second round isn't very good doesn't make sense to me for one simple reason: The Packers essentially doubled their odds of having a viable successor to Favre by taking Brohm themselves.

As for Champs argument that Brohm wouldn't be good anytime soon anyway, well, you gotta start the clock SOMETIME. The Vikings now have a proven question mark starting and proven nobody as a back-up. IMO, there is no QB on their roster that has a shot of developing into a Super Bowl winning QB. Unless the Vikings defense becomes as good as the Baltimore Ravens of 2000, I find it highly unlikely the Vikings will win a Super Bowl with this roster. I know that Ben Roethelsthersheheberger was a much higher pick, but he still won the big game early in his career.

Brohm was supposedly "NFL ready" and would have been a top 10 pick last year, so it would have seemed like a good pick, at least on paper. If he ends up working out well for the Packers the Vikings will be kicking themselves for a decade.

quote:

Originally posted by CJS:
However, your logic that the historical odds for QB's in the second round isn't very good doesn't make sense to me for one simple reason: The Packers essentially doubled their odds of having a viable successor to Favre by taking Brohm themselves.

Certainly the Packers increased their odds of getting one successful quarterback by using early picks on two of them. But that doesn't automatically make him a good pick. (Besides which, even Green Bay passed on him at 30, and 36, before taking him at 56.) If the Vikings thought Brohm had a 15 percent shot of being a good QB and the safety they took has a 50 percent shot of being a good DB, they made the right choice.

Look, I hope the Vikings did make the wrong choice. But to argue in favor of a pick because it would have "looked good on paper" is meaningless. And anyway, the crummy success rate of 2nd-round QBs, particularly around where Brohm and Henne were chosen, disputes even that.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
I, for one, think the Vikes will rue the day they passed on Brian Brohm. ... The list of 2nd round failures at QB can't really be argued against. I'm pleased they continue to believe in Tarvaris Jackson.

I trust you see the contradiction here.

Yes, I do. Tarvaris was a 2nd rounder and is a failure. I do get that Brian Brohm was a 2nd rounder and per history doesn't stand a very good chance. I look at the list and don't see any QB that I expected to be good at the NFL level on that list with the exception of Plummer and Brees. The rest of those guys weren't highly regarded. I don't recall ANY of them being potential TOP 10 picks at any point during their college careers. Brian Brohm WAS a potential top tenner 2 years ago. He has been called "NFL ready" whereas I don't think guys like Tony Sacca, Shaun King, Drew Stanton, etc were.

Brett Favre certainly surprised. One must realize at ANY position you could make laundry lists of names and only a small percentage are going to have great careers at any position. I'm a Brohm fan and am in awe that this franchise has two guys that I never fathomed they would ever be in position to get.

I look at Minnesota and laugh. Tarvaris Jackson has shown NOTHING to this point. Could he have a miraculous jump this year. Sure. I wouldn't bet that he would. Gus Frerotte is Plan B. My goodness isn't he about the same age as Vinny Testaverde? Has Gus ever played in the WCO? I really don't understand that franchise. The one glaring need they have is filled with Gus Frerotte and John David Booty? If this was Green Bay's post-Favre plan I'm sure all of us would be irate.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by CJS:
However, your logic that the historical odds for QB's in the second round isn't very good doesn't make sense to me for one simple reason: The Packers essentially doubled their odds of having a viable successor to Favre by taking Brohm themselves.

Certainly the Packers increased their odds of getting one successful quarterback by using early picks on two of them. But that doesn't automatically make him a good pick. (Besides which, even Green Bay passed on him at 30, and 36, before taking him at 56.) If the Vikings thought Brohm had a 15 percent shot of being a good QB and the safety they took has a 50 percent shot of being a good DB, they made the right choice.

Look, I hope the Vikings did make the wrong choice. But to argue in favor of a pick because it would have "looked good on paper" is meaningless. And anyway, the crummy success rate of 2nd-round QBs, particularly around where Brohm and Henne were chosen, disputes even that.

No draft pick at ANY point in the draft, is automatically a good pick. It's what the player does after the draft that determines that and there is no way for a team to predict that. Therefore, everything a team looks at when taking a player is essntially "on paper". IMO, on paper, Brohm seemed to be a good fit for the Vikings.

As for the historical data that you are using to support your argument about 2nd round QB's, I wonder how often the second QB off the board gets drafted at 56? The Packers did try to trade up to get Brohm when they saw him falling, so at the very least, Ted Thompson saw value.

Hey, Brohm might turn out to be great, and I hope he is. Better yet, I hope we never find out because Rodgers is so good that Brohm never plays. In any case, it's more relevant where he was drafted than where he might have been drafted. He's a longshot to be an NFL success. I don't see the point in criticizing a team for passing on him when almost every NFL GM passed on him.

As for Green Bay's post-Favre plan, if we had used a late 2nd-rounder two years ago on a guy who turned out to be a bust, I wouldn't have been crusading for us to use a late 2nd-rounder again just two years later. You're right, Tarvaris Jackson has shown nothing. And Brohm's a guy drafted in essentially the same spot. Maybe he'll be better; I get that you're a Brohm fan, so maybe you'll be right.

quote:

Originally posted by CJS:
No draft pick at ANY point in the draft, is automatically a good pick. It's what the player does after the draft that determines that and there is no way for a team to predict that. Therefore, everything a team looks at when taking a player is essntially "on paper". IMO, on paper, Brohm seemed to be a good fit for the Vikings.

As for the historical data that you are using to support your argument about 2nd round QB's, I wonder how often the second QB off the board gets drafted at 56? The Packers did try to trade up to get Brohm when they saw him falling, so at the very least, Ted Thompson saw value.

I'll agree with you about the on paper thing. Had the Vikings drafted Brohm or Henne, the next day all the people who grade drafts would have given the Vikings an "A" and been talking about how they drafted their QB of the future. You know, the same clueless morons everyone here rips for days afterward and makes fun of three years later when all those grades are wrong.

Brohm was actually the third QB off the board; Flacco was 2nd. What it sometimes means is that it was considered a particularly weak crop of quarterbacks, with arguably only one legit franchise guy. TT saw enough value to draft him at 56, but not at 36 (instead taking a WR, arguably our deepest position), and he didn't see enough value to actually trade up, just consider it.

EDIT: I should add, by the way, I do think the Vikings are a bunch of clueless idiots to be counting on Tarvaris Jackson. (Although I don't think as little of Frerotte as a veteran backup as some do.) I just don't agree that it follows that they're clueless idiots for passing on Brohm. I certainly hope they rue the day and all that and never win a thing for the rest of their franchise existence.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
EDIT: I should add, by the way, I do think the Vikings are a bunch of clueless idiots to be counting on Tarvaris Jackson. I just don't agree that it follows that they're clueless idiots for passing on Brohm. I certainly hope they rue the day and all that and never win a thing for the rest of their franchise existence.

There we agree. I just don't see Tarvaris as a viable QB, when the rest of their team "on paper" looks to be pretty darn good.

As far as me being a Brohm fan, I wouldn't go that far. I know too little about the kid to have a feeling for whether he's good or not. (and even if I did, my eye is untrained to say the least) I just thought the Vikings should have drafted him based on Brohm's "NFL ready" pedigree and T-Jack's "not-so NFL ready" pedigree.

I was responding to CoP with the Brohm fan post.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:

quote:

Originally posted by CJS:
No draft pick at ANY point in the draft, is automatically a good pick. It's what the player does after the draft that determines that and there is no way for a team to predict that. Therefore, everything a team looks at when taking a player is essntially "on paper". IMO, on paper, Brohm seemed to be a good fit for the Vikings.

As for the historical data that you are using to support your argument about 2nd round QB's, I wonder how often the second QB off the board gets drafted at 56? The Packers did try to trade up to get Brohm when they saw him falling, so at the very least, Ted Thompson saw value.

I'll agree with you about the on paper thing. Had the Vikings drafted Brohm or Henne, the next day all the people who grade drafts would have given the Vikings an "A" and been talking about how they drafted their QB of the future. You know, the same clueless morons everyone here rips for days afterward and makes fun of three years later when all those grades are wrong.

Brohm was actually the third QB off the board; Flacco was 2nd. What it sometimes means is that it was considered a particularly weak crop of quarterbacks, with arguably only one legit franchise guy. TT saw enough value to draft him at 56, but not at 36 (instead taking a WR, arguably our deepest position), and he didn't see enough value to actually trade up, just consider it.

EDIT: I should add, by the way, I do think the Vikings are a bunch of clueless idiots to be counting on Tarvaris Jackson. (Although I don't think as little of Frerotte as a veteran backup as some do.) I just don't agree that it follows that they're clueless idiots for passing on Brohm. I certainly hope they rue the day and all that and never win a thing for the rest of their franchise existence.

About 2nd round QB's...I think that round is a panic round for GM's. If they've seen all the QB's they wanted to take in Round 1 go off the board they reach for a guy in Round 2 for fear they won't get a "good" one. OR, they felt a guy might sneak through to Round 2 and he gets taken so they panic that way also. I think we did the same thing with Brandon Jackson when Buffalo mowed our lawn by taking Marshawn Lynch. This is what creates "busts".

As for Brohm, I'm happy he's a Packer but wished we'd have gone another direction. I love Rodgers. I'm thrilled Brohm won't be wearing the Lion, C, or Horn emblem on his helmet. He does look like a young Favre especially when he has his helmet on. I think that's why TT drafted him. Brohm is an injury risk. I think that's why he fell. One of the funny "knocks" on Brohm is he did "EVERYTHING well" but didn't stand out in any particular category. I'll take a QB like that. Consistent. I think the kid is a winner but hope we never find out because Aaron Rodgers is that good.

The Vikes obviously felt they needed a QB. That is why they traded with us to get the man who shot Lincoln, or was that Buckwheat? Perhaps, they were in love with Tyrell Johnson and had him rated extremely high on their board so they decided to go up and get him. If you take a QB that you think has a shot in Round 5 it masks the fact that you think you might have made a mistake with Jackson. Now, had they taken Brohm I think that's an admission TarJack is a bust. Do I think since we took him that it implies we think Rodgers is a bust? No. I think it implies that we feel Rodgers may not be the answer and is injury prone. Why we would take another injury prone guy if that was the logic is befuddling.

Gus Frerotte had 7 TD's and 12 picks last season. He's hardly peaking in his latter years. He's 36 and I really don't think he's ever played QB in the WCO. Now, given his experience level the transition should be easier but to count on a mediocre, at best, aging QB that hasn't played in the offense before is very risky considering your starter is Tarvaris Jackson. Jeff Garcia made great sense. Why not deal a pick for him? Tampa has 7 QB's on the roster so I think they could've parted with Garcia. At least he's been successful in the WCO. We know TarJack is starting the opener for the Vikes and Rodgers for the Pack. I don't think it's a lock either, or both, of them start the game between the two teams at the Metrodome.

On an unrelated note, I've read some crazy talk the Vikings are interested in acquiring Jason Taylor. This is a move we should make. If the Vikes were to acquire Taylor I would change my tune about them a bit, but he still doesn't play QB which is their biggest area of need.

Nitwit fans in probably 20 NFL cities think their team is going to acquire Jason Taylor. I'd say the Vikings are about the least likely team to invest the picks and money in another defensive end.

The knock I saw a couple of places on Brohm is arm strength. Pro Football Weekly's pre-draft guide used the term "pop-gun." I'm not saying it's true, but that's definitely a reason why some QBs fall out of the first round -- do they have enough arm strength to make all the throws in the NFL? (This is where somebody says you don't need a strong arm to play in the short passing game of the WCO, which is not true. Arm strength isn't always about heaving it 60 yards, it's about getting it into a tight spot quickly.)

I think Frerotte played in the WCO in Denver a few years back. I don't think he's great. As veteran backups go, though, he's serviceable. Put it this way, if we're 8-4 and Rodgers gets hurt, I personally would rather bring in Frerotte to start those last four games than a rookie, any rookie.

quote:

Originally posted by Max:
Nitwit fans in probably 20 NFL cities think their team is going to acquire Jason Taylor. I'd say the Vikings are about the least likely team to invest the picks and money in another defensive end.

The knock I saw a couple of places on Brohm is arm strength. Pro Football Weekly's pre-draft guide used the term "pop-gun." I'm not saying it's true, but that's definitely a reason why some QBs fall out of the first round -- do they have enough arm strength to make all the throws in the NFL? (This is where somebody says you don't need a strong arm to play in the short passing game of the WCO, which is not true. Arm strength isn't always about heaving it 60 yards, it's about getting it into a tight spot quickly.)

I think Frerotte played in the WCO in Denver a few years back. I don't think he's great. As veteran backups go, though, he's serviceable. Put it this way, if we're 8-4 and Rodgers gets hurt, I personally would rather bring in Frerotte to start those last four games than a rookie, any rookie.

Pop gun!? That's funny stuff. I don't really know about his arm strength. I watched him a few times on the tube and didn't notice any troubles with velocity or distance. I recall Marino and Young throwing the ball around 60 yards in that NFL QB Challenge distance throwing event. Favre chucked it 73 if I recall on a windy day. Testaverde threw it over 80 one year. I'm sure arm strength is important to some degree but too many place too much on that alone. Kyle Boller ringing any bells? That guy could whip it from his knees from the 50 through the goal posts. He sucks. Brohm was college good...college very good. Will it translate? I don't see why not.

As for Frerotte coming in over Brohm... I see your point. Brohm could be Roethlisberger or Marino good in his rookie season. We know Frerotte is going to be Frerotte. I guess on the other hand Brohm could be Aaron Rodgers in Year 1 or 2...scary thought.

quote:

The knock I saw a couple of places on Brohm is arm strength. Pro Football Weekly's pre-draft guide used the term "pop-gun." I'm not saying it's true, but that's definitely a reason why some QBs fall out of the first round -- do they have enough arm strength to make all the throws in the NFL? (This is where somebody says you don't need a strong arm to play in the short passing game of the WCO, which is not true. Arm strength isn't always about heaving it 60 yards, it's about getting it into a tight spot quickly.)

You mean like Joe Montana, or Tom Brady?

Arm strength to a certain extent is like 40 times for some players. It might be one of the most overrated aspects in football.

Give me a guy that is a good leader and makes sound decisions over the big arm athlete any day of the week.

BTW, our strong arm QB got schooled by a noodle armed Eli Manning in arguably one of the most important games of their respective careers. Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by Change of Possession:
About 2nd round QB's...I think that round is a panic round for GM's.

So, by your own admission, TT panicked by drafting a QB in the second round.

quote:

The Vikes obviously felt they needed a QB.

Yes.

But not a starter, a possible #3 QB to be groomed as Frerotte's replacement as the #2 QB sometime in the future. The VIKES GM didn't panic (your thought process - not mine), because he already had both a starter and a veteran backup QB on the roster.

And remember, it was TT that drafted 2 QB's in this year's draft because GB has no veteran backup QB and they don't have a QB on their roster that has ever started an NFL game.

Now AR may be the MVP of the league this year, but it's also possible that he may not even make it to his second start.

His history of being fit to play the following week after he actually plays in a game has not been too good.