quote:

Originally posted by Rags:
100% dead wrong on that (IMO). Sending him down gave him an extra year before free agency. With his crappy year, this INCREASED his trade value, IMO.

I agree. Scouts know how a player is doing, minors or majors. It doesnt matter if he was sent down . He sucked. Im glad they got a centerfielder

They got next to nothing for him. Are you saying if they hadn't sent him down they would have gotten less? Not so.

Once the Brewers sent Hardy down then everybody knew he couldn't, not just wouldn't, be with the Brewers next season and one extra year of control won't offset an obvious fire sale. No scout's opinion ever came into play on this one.

Hardy's bad year screwed his trade value and Melvin's mismanagement of not selling high didn't help.

I don't like the trade. I don't think we got enough in return for an exceptional short stop. Now he didn't hit this year and he's streaky, but he's a terrific fielder has some power and under a good hitting coach will be much more productive than he was this year.

Gomez .229 hitter. What? Who do you think is going to turn this guy around as a hitter? Dale? The only good thing is your got guy with speed who is a good defensive player and you saved a lot of money.

quote:

Originally posted by STEAMBOAT:
I like the line-up, especially if you deal Hart+Gamel +++ = PITCHING

Lopez
Weeks
Brauny
Fielder
McGehee
Rivera
Gomez
Pitcher
Escobar

Here it is again .... 'I'm Lovin it'

I like the speed but Rivera is not the answer behind the plate and a corner OFer with some pop instead both Lopez and Weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:
Melvin's mismanagement of not selling high didn't help.

You saw an obvious replacement ready for the big time in Escobar and knew Hardy was goind to suck?

Timberlake knew Hardy was going to hit .222... He's Ms. Cleo.

Love how we are bringing this up again after people including myself said move Hardy for pitching last year.

Escobar would've had higher totals in every statiscal one except for homers.

How is Gomez next to nothing? That's crazy. He was the centerpiece of the Santana trade two years ago. If anything he's a prospect that had a bad year in the MLB in his first season. That never happens.... he's a bust.

I dont expect a ton from the guy, but they got a guy with big upside, is cheap, and is 24.


We traded JJ Hardy guys, not Ryan Braun. He wasn't going to command a #2 type of pitcher in return.. or even a #3. We're talking a Dave Bush type pitcher in return.. that would have been about the ceiling. Gomez is a good risk to take IMO, he is a version of TGJr (except much faster-and a much better defender).

With Melvin trading his All Stars, he couldn't even bring home a #2 starter anyhow when he traded Sexson and Lee.

He had De La Rosa but sent him packing for Tony G.

Whatever talent Gomez has he was replaced by Denard Span and he really outplayed him.

The reality is that as touted as he has been he's never lived up to expectations, and on paper this looked very tilted in Minnesota's favor.

That's not to say Gomez can't improve but right now I don't like the overall value of this trade.

Not many guys "get it" their 1st year in the MLB. For every Ryan Braun there are dozens of guys that struggle to find their niche. Sometimes it takes a year or two or three.. sometimes they flame into oblivion. I'd take 1 year with a grain of salt at this point. I like the idea of having Gomez as opposed to JJ Hardy. I'd rather have Span.. but, we weren't getting him for JJ.

JJ had very little value- that's what this is all about. You send a guy down to the minors and have a guy like Escobar waiting in the wings and every MLB knows it.

I think Minnesota got the better end of the deal by a wide margin simply because the odds of JJ becoming a solid contributor are much greater than Gomez at this point.

Corey Hart has to be wondering if he's next.

Twinkies get JJ for 2 years.

We have Gomez for 4.

quote:

Originally posted by Diggr14:
How is Gomez next to nothing? That's crazy. He was the centerpiece of the Santana trade two years ago. If anything he's a prospect that had a bad year in the MLB in his first season. That never happens.... he's a bust.

This wasn't his first season. He's been up for 3 years and never even had an OBP of .300. I know he can improve and has potential but we could have gotten a better deal if the Brewers had handled the situation smarter. If he had lived up to being the centerpiece of the Santana trade do you think the Twins would have traded him?

This guy is only 3 years younger than Hardy. I get a kick out of the comment, "If anything he's a prospect that had a bad year". It could have been said, Hardy is an established major leaguer who just had a bad year had things been handled the right way.

quote:

Originally posted by STEAMBOAT:
I like the line-up, especially if you deal Hart+Gamel +++ = PITCHING

Lopez
Weeks
Brauny
Fielder
McGehee
Rivera
Gomez
Pitcher
Escobar

Here it is again .... 'I'm Lovin it'

Steamboat -

I have a hard time with Lopez in the outfield.
If they deal Hart and Gamel maybe they will get someone better qualified.

If Hardy doesn't get sent down, I would think he would have been a DFA candidate due to his salary. The Brewers had a cheaper option in Escobar and Hardy would have been under control for one more year. I don't think his demotion hurt his value. Most GM would rather have a guy under control for two seasons rather than one. Melvin may not have stated it in the papers, but to other GM it has to be more appealing than only one season.

I think people are really underestimating Gomez' defense. He is one of the best CF in baseball. As poorly as he performed offensively the past two years, he actually had good overall value in 2008 with a WAR of 2.3 as a 22 year old in CF.

Gomez is also not a good comp to TGJ. Gwynn gets on base better and that is about the only thing he does better. Gomez has more speed, is actually a better defender (no slight to TGJ, who is very good defensively), and has more power. Gomez was rushed and there is reason to believe his offense improves, even if it just comes up to his 2008 levels he will still have value because of his exceptional defense in CF.

They have now shed Hardy, Cameron, and Weathers' contracts. I would not be surprised if Bush or Looper are the next to be gone. I really think they might just make a run at a high price starter through free agency or trade. They have cleared salary for this year and next year have the dead weight of Suppan and Hall cleared as well.

I don't have defensive stats for 2009. That being said, I didn't need to reference Dewan's Fielding Bible to know that this guy is an electric defender. You don't need to see him play more than a couple games to have that figured out. In 2008 he was second in the majors in defensive runs saved at 17. Carlos Beltran was #1 with 21, but he was credited with 3 more based on home runs taken away (which is as much of a measure of opportunity as a measure of ability IMO) which created most of the difference. Cameron was 9th with 7 runs saved. Gomez was #1 in +/- at +29...roughly meaning he made 29 plays more than the average centerfielder. What was really impressive was that he played deep balls at a +23 clip. Cameron was a +12. And Gomez isn't one of those guys with great range but no arm, his throwing metrics graded as a +1 run saved (Cameron graded as 0...completely neutral).

I remember in 2008 being really impressed blown away when watching Gomez play centerfield and looked up his zone rating at the time and wasn't surprised to see that he was #1 in all of baseball in that statistic. What was really impressive is I started looking back through zone rating statistics from previous years and at the time Gomez had posted a higher zone rating than any player had done in the last 6 years. I don't know if he finished the season with the same numbers, but it was certainly impressive at the time.

Unfortunately, I'm not even as worried about his bat as I am his head. A colleague of mine was reading me some quotes from Gardenhire today and it sounds like the Twins gave up on him because of stupid little dumb things he would do on the diamond. The example was something like, "when your pitcher just threw 30 pitches the previous inning, you don't want Gomez screwing himself into the ground swinging at the first pitch of the next inning."

In addition to the great defense I think Gomez has to put together an OBP of about .330 to make himself a real asset to a ballclub. Obviously you'd like to see that OBP even better than that but defensively he is so exceptional I still think he could be an asset with that relatively low OBP. He had a OBP of .331 during his minor league career (prior to 2008) so it's a real question if he'll get there or not. Just get that OBP up to a somewhat reasonable level and figure out not to do the dumb things that I pointed out in the paraphrased quote from Gardenhire.

Sounds like the Brewers could have gotten Michael Bowden and I would definitely have been tempted to go with him instead of Gomez:
http://www.boston.com/sports/b.../sox_were_in_on.html

Bowden has gotten rave reviews in some circles but just reading through the scouting reports and looking at his minor league statistics and I get the impression that he is the type of pitcher that probably ends up as a #3 type guy. I might have gone for him instead of Gomez but Gomez can help you sooner and probably has just as good of a chance to turn into a real star as Bowden. But I guess I am more of the mindset that the Brewers should use 2010 as more of a retooling year for 2011 and beyond and with that mindset it probably makes more sense to go with a young pitcher that you can control for 6 years. Melvin probably feels he needs to win now and with that mindset getting a rookie pitcher that you have to throw into the fire right away is not a move that would be wise for you to make.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando Wolf:

quote:

Originally posted by chickenboy:
OMG...I thought he would get more than that. From all that I read about dealing with the Twins was Gomez plus for Hardy.

Carlos will be fun to watch but I have to say right now I'm not that jazzed about this....

Hardy was in the minors last year. Be realistic.

He's also been an all-star and just turned 27. Don't we need pitching?

quote:

Originally posted by Tschmack:
JJ had very little value- that's what this is all about. You send a guy down to the minors and have a guy like Escobar waiting in the wings and every MLB knows it.

I think Minnesota got the better end of the deal by a wide margin simply because the odds of JJ becoming a solid contributor are much greater than Gomez at this point.

You send a guy down to the minors who is struggling and needs to fix things where it doesn't count. If you send the guy down because you don't think he can play anymore, then you get Gomez in return on a trade. It took the Brewers too long to send Hardy down. For the life of me I don't know why Dale couldn't fix him, but he couldn't. He played badly in the minors and we brought him back before he was fix and that's how you also get Gomez.

I still think Hardy will come back and play well and from what I've read and heard about Gomez don't expect much.

Then, I guess you better get your Twins @ Brewer tickets (6/22-24) quickly, Warren

I look at this trade in two ways.

The first possible good thing about this trade is the domino effect it might have. By going out and getting a CFer the Brewers will save approximately $14,000,000 by not having Cameron and Hardy. If that can be parlayed into a very good starting pitcher the team will be better.

The next way to look at this is simply a Hardy for Gomez straight up. Unfortunately, Hardy tanked last year and killed his value. No one was going to give up a top pitching prospect for him. So getting someone like Gomez was probably the best they could do. Having said that they acquired a very young player with upside. He already plays very good defense, so if he can hit even a little bit I am fine with this because the Brewers really need to improve defense and pitching. They have enough bats.

Last year I was one of the few people who thought a Cameron/Cabrera deal would be a good one. People were down on Cabrera because he had never quite lived up to his potential. I argued that he was just a kid and could turn it around. He had a nice year in 2009. Hopefully Gomez will show improvement at the plate as well.

The other aspect to consider is would the Brewers have been better off dealing Escobar in order to get pitching because I believe that's who they would have had to give up. Then they would have Hardy for the next two years and could have hoped for him to bounce back.

That may have been the wiser course because I think they only have a 2 year window to possibly win a championship. I'd hate to give up someone like Escobar, but I think he's the one guy (outside of Braun and Fielder) who could have yielded the pitching this team needs.

I fear now that we'll go out and use the money we saved on Cameron/Hardy to go out and get Washburn and Jon Garland.

The money saved by this trade is a big part of it. McCalvy tweeted yesterday that Melvin mentioned Lackey's name and did not rule him out while also not saying Lackey would be targeted. I take it as there is interest in Lackey and freeing up this money along with the possible money from letting Bush or Looper go would be enough to get Lackey. Weathers is gone so they may be able to keep both Looper and Bush if they choose to do so.

They still have other pieces to use to improve starting pitching through a trade. I would prefer to keep Parra. They can use Hart, Gamel, or McGehee along with prospects like Salome, Green, Cain, and Schafer to go after a good starting pitcher. I would prefer to keep Lawrie and think they could put something together without including him. Cain and Schafer are both good CF prospects that will open at AA and AAA next year so they should each have some decent value.

I don't care for the offense of Gomez, but that defense up the middle with Escobar and Gomez is going to take away more runs than has ever been seen in the history of the Brewers' franchise. That is a statement that I feel confident about, not just exaggeration. I liked Gomez a lot when he was with the Mets' system. He was one of the youngest players for every level he played at throughout the minors, which is the MO of the Mets in regards to how they handle their top prospects. Gomez was an asset to the Twins as a 22 year old in 2008 even while posting a putrid OBP of .296. I have no doubts that he can get that OBP up over .325 with some pop and a ton of speed. He isn't the smartest base runner, but that is one thing that can actually be improved with coaching. He is a high energy guy that will fit in well.

I wanted pitching, but am always intrigued by the high ceiling guy and don't have a problem gambling on high talent rather than take a low ceiling pitcher like Bowden. The addition of Gomez and the maturation of Escobar defensively will by itself make the pitching better. A health McGehee should help defensively. Weeks and Fielder both showed improvement defensively last year. I am actually looking forward to watching the defense next season, especially Gomez and Escobar, as I will be looking forward to Braun and Prince at the plate.

Gomez and Escobar will both be economical for the next 4 years. Will we have a solid catcher develop from all the prospects to fill the final defensive hole?