You're almost as laughable as Tuna. Face it Bandwagoner fan, Kobe wouldn't win titles with another team. The league wants the Lakers to win because they are the face of the NBA.

I have no idea what games you guys were supposedly watching during the 2000-2002 playoffs but Shaq was THE reason the Lakers won the titles those years. Of course Kobe contributed to those playoff wins as well, but the numbers are undeniable. Had Shaq been a better FT shooter he very well may have averaged close to 50PPG in the playoffs those years. Kobe was not nearly the force people think he was those years.

He's obviously gotten much better whereas Shaq has gone in the other direction since that point, but how anyone can suggest that Shaq wasn't the reason they won those 3 championships is beyond me.

Shaq WAS the reason they won those titles. W/O Shaq's face marketing the Lakers, the league doesn't rig it either.

quote:

2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-2 victory over the Indiana Pacers and the franchise’s first NBA Championship since 1988. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 43 points, 19 rebounds in Game #1, 40 points, 24 rebounds in Game #2 and 41 points, 12 rebounds in Game #6.

2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-1victory over the Philadelphia 76ers and the franchise’s second consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 44 points, 20 rebounds and five assists in Game #1, 28 points, 20 rebounds and nine assists in Game #2 and 34 points, 14 rebounds in Game #4.

2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks to lead the Lakers to a sweep of the New Jersey Nets and the franchise’s third consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 36 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks in Game #1, 40 points, 12 rebounds and eight assists in Game #2, 35 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in Game #3.

MC and Calbuc,

Did you ever get schooled. My goodness, just LOOK at the numbers!!! Added to this is the fact that the sheer size of Shaq absolutely dominates the interior on both sides of the court.

Given the above numbers, it is impossible to say Kobe was the dominant force in winning those series. At best, Shaq was the dominant force in 2000 and perhaps Kobe was a close equal to Shaq in the other two.

Artist,

The Lakers are the face of the NBA? That's a ludicrous statement. Let's see, all we heard about LAST YEAR and saw in commercials were the three Celtics. Garnett, Pierce, Allen as the hired three...Garnett was ALL over the TV in those black and white NBA ads with only the green showing in color.

THIS past year, all we saw on TV time after time was LeBron! King James this, King James that...ad nauseum. Hmmm,..funny that he has not won anything. But, if SHAQ joins the cavs, I am SURE you will suggest he will win one because SHAQ is the "Man" in your eyes.

If anything, the NBA would have had a HUGE bonanza if the FINALS would have included LeBron. LeBron, undoubtedly, is the face of the NBA whether we want it or not. For you to suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of awareness.

Kobe clearly played second fiddle to LeBron this year in the media.

THE LAKERS WON BECAUSE OF KOBE TimberLake, Kobe did not win because of the LAKERS.

Keep on believing there were four shooters in the Kennedy assassination.

Keep on believing that OJ was innocent.

Keep on believing that the Earth is flat.

Keep on believing that Shaq would have won three titles without Kobe in 2000-2002.

Why didn't Shaq win anything BEFORE Kobe came along to help him?

Why did the Pistons beat the Lakers to prevent a four-peat if the league loves the Lakers?

Keep trying to make us believe you only like teams that win? Where's Fresno STate in baseball this year?

Keep on believing Shaq had nothing to do with those titles after I posted how he was MVP.

Keep on telling us you don't change teams like Paris Hilton changes BFF's.

Keep on telling us you like the hottest teams in baseball but only when they are good like how you became an Indians fan, and a Buc Fan, and you love the Lakers....

Keep on convincing us Fresno State owned Wisconsin last year even though the Badgers won with horrific officiating having points taking off the board because of a reversal.

quote:

Did you ever get schooled. My goodness, just LOOK at the numbers!!! Added to this is the fact that the sheer size of Shaq absolutely dominates the interior on both sides of the court.

The more I have thought about Shaq's so-called dominance the more I shrug it off.

The real accomplishment for the 2nd and 3rd Titles were the way they got there, not what they did when they got there. Kobe out-scored Shaq in the WC Finals against the Spurs in '01, and was more or less even with Shaq in the Kings series.

He was the best player on the court. He also was the man with the ball in his hands whenever the game was on the line. Shaq most often was on the sidelines because he's a 45% FT shooter.

Saying that Shaq dominated inferior opponents in the Finals against the Pacers, Sixers, and Nets is not that impressive to me.

The Lakers got there far more because of Kobe than Shaq, IMO. Shaq was fat, lazy, and uninterested until he had a chance at the glory. But his advanatge, which of course he has the right to use, was that he's a monster of a man. To me, that makes him no more great than being a grown man playing against 8th graders. Shaq was always content to just be bigger and stronger than his opponents, not better. Kobe has always been driven to be great. That's what makes Shaq take a back seat to Kobe, IMO.

Music City,

Best post I ever read from you.


Artist,

I've been a Lakers fan since before you were born so please spare me the lecture. I remember Pat Riley being a scrub on the Lakers. I remember Happy Hairston, Mehdi Abdul Rehman (whom I met personally as a kid), and Gail Goodrich, Connie Hawkins... I remember Walt Frazier and Earl The Pearl Monroe beating the Lakers in the Finals. Those are names that you have never heard of. Only a true Lakers fan knows them.

It's time you went to NBA school 101 and learned something.

I only like teams that win? For your information and continued NBA education, the Lakers won nothing from 2003-2009. Is it my fault that they are the most successful NBA team from 1970 onwards when i came to So CAL in America? The Bucs have won one Super Bowl in 35 years?

The Angels have won TWO whole World Series in history? Yeah, I'm a bandwagoner...

But then, what can you expect from someone that idolizes Justin TimberLake?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes, MUSIC started with Justin TimberLake. He's the greatest talent EVER! Without him, music itself wouldn't have survived! Hell, the world might not have survived. Didn't he date or do your other idol Paris Hilton once? I'm sure you believe FASHION started with that skank.

Listen, we have beaten a dead horse. Do a survey of true Laker fans and ask any of them if they think the Lakers would have won even one championship with Shaq alone and no Kobe? Or vice versa. ALL will tell you NO.

Just answer me ONE question:

Why didn't Shaq win one BEFORE KOBE? On any team? And are you going to even have the stupidity to suggest that Shaq was the REASON for the HEAT championship?

It takes three or more really good quality players to win a FINAL ring in the NBA.

Let me tell you one thing while we are at it. Without GLEN RICE on the LAKERS in the FINALS in one of those years, neither SHAQ nor KOBE get a ring. He hit the clutch shots in that series. Just like MAGIC and KAREEM get all the headlines, THAT team does not win as many championships without JAMES BIG GAME WORTHY.

It takes THREE son, it takes THREE.

quote:

But his advanatge, which of course he has the right to use, was that he's a monster of a man. To me, that makes him no more great than being a grown man playing against 8th graders.

Man, do I hate this and I have heard it so many times before.

Why not be consistent and use this argument across the board? How good would NBA players be if they were of average height? The greatness of athletes is due to the sum-total of who they are that enables them to perform at the level they do. Jabbar was great, in part, because he was tall. Would he have made an NBA roster if he was of average height (say 5'10")?

How about defensive lineman? Aren't some "great" partly because they are massive?

I respect that Shaq had a great career in large part because he is a massive man, but I don't think it's fair to PENALIZE him for that just because I wouldn't penalize Jabbar's greatness being partly due to being quite tall.

Now, back to the Shaq-Kobe debate. I don't know the stats for the series before the finals just as I didn't know the stats for the finals. All I do know is that CalBuc said that Kobe was the main reason for the Laker championships while playing with Shaq, someone replied with Shaq's finals numbers, and those numbers, quite simply, match up with the absolute best in the history of the NBA finals.

Ain't no way I would side step that with observations like Shaq did well in large part because he is a big man.

quote:

Man, do I hate this and I have heard it so many times before.

Why not be consistent and use this argument across the board? How good would NBA players be if they were of average height? The greatness of athletes is due to the sum-total of who they are that enables them to perform at the level they do. Jabbar was great, in part, because he was tall. Would he have made an NBA roster if he was of average height (say 5'10")?

How about defensive lineman? Aren't some "great" partly because they are massive?

I respect that Shaq had a great career in large part because he is a massive man, but I don't think it's fair to PENALIZE him for that just because I wouldn't penalize Jabbar's greatness being partly due to being quite tall.

But the difference is that Jabbar developed his game outside of his natural height. Shaq was bigger, stronger... and that was it. He never developed any semblance of a gme outside of that physical stature.

There are plenty of guys that have been and strong, as well as fast and athletic. All of them had to develop a game to be great. That is the one thing Shaq never had to do- he was just that much apart- of course, when he fasced up against Olajuwon, the most skilled big man to ever play, Hakeem abused him every which way but loose.

Fortunately for Shaq, there was no one who could do that going forward.

Kobe's game transcends any kind of defender you can put on him, and he can defend about anyone outside of big men. He does this with pure desire. Fitness, game, understanding the concepts of the game, being a student of the game... Shaq is none of those things.

Phaedrus,

I did NOT say that KOBE was the MAIN reason for the Lakers championships. I said HE and Shaq were EQUALLY responsible for the championships. One could not have done it without the other.



BY the way, we all get to see how true the SHAQ-KOBE debate is now. SHAQ is officially a CAVALIER as of today! Let's see who wins this thing now provided the Lakers can keep their team together. Odom, Ariza are free agents...

Lakers need a younger point guard.

Spurs got Richard Jefferson... It's going to be interesting next year.

Phaedrus,

Here is what I said earlier in this thread...

quote:

Originally posted by CALBuccaneer:
Artist,

You obviously did not watch the 2000-2002 Lakers... Finally,....


I don't recall seeing a FAT SHAQ on this year's Lakers team. Do you??? Nobody carried that Lakers team. Shaq and kobe are equally responsible for those three first rings.

quote:

I've been a Lakers fan since before you were born

Christ already put a sock in it

You come in here and spout off nonstop about what a great fan you are- PS homeboy- NOBODY CARES!

Everyone knows that Lakers fans are some of the biggest frontrunners out there. I lived there- believe me, I know. Everyone rips on Vikings fans but LA fans are much worse.

Don't worry Cal- I'm sure you love the Yankees, U$C, and just about any other "great" sports program. You are pretty loyal- LMAO

anyone see that episode of “Curb Your Enthusiam” where the discuss around the table how great the Lakers are? “But we have Shaq” was about the limit of the depth of knowledge.

Funny show, I’ve been a fan since before most you were born.

quote:

Originally posted by Tschmack:

quote:

I've been a Lakers fan since before you were born

Don't worry Cal- I'm sure you love the Yankees, U$C, and just about any other "great" sports program. You are pretty loyal- LMAO

Dyslexia is a tough thing to handle isn't it Tschmack? Try READING the thread.

Do you see Yankees and USC anywhere?

About me being a Lakers fan before Justin Timberlake was born, yep, its true.

Your idea of what is loyal or not doesn't concern me.

The Lakers were good back then. Just like when the Bucs started winning you became a fan....and the Indians...like when FSU won the CWS you showed up to spout off.....next.... CalBandwagoneer.

Stern should have never allowed the Gasol trade last year.

Any other team and he would've nixed the trade for "competitive balance" reasons....but, because it was the Leakers, he let it slide.

I believe Gasol is the reason for the Lakers reemergence back to the Finals.

...that, and of course, the "Koby Rules" that the refs employ.

Let's face it, the NBA Finals were a watered down product. Some of the guys playing for these two teams were garbage.

Poor quality teams...this Lakers team was nothing special as they never faced top flight competition.

Last years Celtic team (who I loath) would have mopped the floor with them ...again.

One and done- that's what the Lakers are

Good luck getting past San Antonio next year now that they've added Richard Jefferson.

If they get past the Spurs good luck getting past improved Cleveland or Orlando teams.

quote:

Last years Celtic team (who I loath) would have mopped the floor with them ...again.

Not according to Cal Buc. He thinks that was a fluke. He also thinks KG is an also ran. I guess that's why Paul Pierce was able to lead them to the Finals, oh wait, I mean the second round this year.

Dare I say it but the balance of power in the league might be shifting back to the East again. Cleveland, Orlando, and probably Boston will all have a legit chance to win it all.

Artist,

What a reach...a guy that lives in Fresno for 30 years is a fan of Fresno State?? A guy that attends college at CAL is a fan of CAL? Shocking!!!

A guy that moves to America in 1970 and lives in Huntington Beach/LA is a Lakers and Angels fan? What a bandwagoner to stay their fan for 40 years.

And for your information, the Bucs were 6-10 the first year I was a fan of the Bucs. If our local NFL team LEAVES, why should I continue to support a team that BETRAYED their fans? We fans did not betray them.

Get your facts straight before you spout nonsense of loyalty.

Hmmm....how long have the Lakers been good? Since they got Kareem? jeez...funny Calbandwagoner liked em since.

Artist,

You keep showing your age and lack of basketball historical knowledge more and more. Stop digging your hole while you can still see the horizon by jumping.

1969-1970 record: 46-36 Hardly overwhelming (NO KAREEM YET TimberLake)

1970-1971 record: 48-34 Again, hardly overwhelming (NO KAREEM YET TimberLake)

1971-1972 record: 69-13 One of the best seasons ever (NO KAREEM YET TimberLake

1972-1973 record: 60-22 A terrific season (NO KAREEN YET TimberLake)

1973-1974 record: 47-35 Back to Earth (NO KAREEM YET TimberLAke)

1974-1975 record: 30-52 BRILLIANT season, no??? (NO KAREEM)

KAREEM GETS TRADED TO LAKERS So, I am a bandwagoner because KAREEM arrived 6 frickin' years AFTER I was a Lakers fan! Do you know how DUMB you sound Artist for shooting off at the mouth about someone you do not know about??!

1975-1976 record: 40-42 Another BRILLIANT season!!!

1976-1977 record: 53-29 A prtty good season

1977-1978 record: 45-37 An average season

1978-1979 record: 47-35 Another ho-hum season

What young puppies like you do not realize is that it was not KAREEM alone that lifted the Lakers to greatness. Just like it was not SHAQ that alone that lifted the Lakers to greatness.

MAGIC arrived in 1980. James Worthy arrived in 1981. Those two together formed the golden THREE with Kareem to become the greatest team of the era. That is when the Lakers became great.

I'm done schooling you Artist. Don't argue about another man's team when you have no IDEA about their history or if you don't watch their every game for the past 40 years.

This PUPPY needs to become a HUSHPUPPY...

While you're at it, post the seasons you were a Cleveland Indian fan too.

Wow! Lakers let ARIZA go in free agency and signed RON ARTEST! We lacked a little toughness but this guy is solid! So, lets see...

KOBE, ARTEST, GASOL, ODOM, BYNUM and whatever point guard you want to throw in there.

Lakers will win two more rings in the next five years at least...

quote:

What young puppies like you do not realize is that it was not KAREEM alone that lifted the Lakers to greatness. Just like it was not SHAQ that alone that lifted the Lakers to greatness.

Well, that's the beauty of a chat room. You can voice your opinion.

IMO, there is no way the Lakers win all those titles without Kareem. Had he stayed in Milwaukee I would guess the Bucks would have won at least a couple of more championships.

I know he comes across as aloof but people seriously underestimate how good Jabbar was.

quote:

While you're at it, post the seasons you were a Cleveland Indian fan too.

Wrong team. He is an Angels fan- or at least since 2002.