The Lakers also won two tainted championships in which one hold a rule change due to horrific, trainswreck, blind officiating called the "Horry" rule.

Stunning Finals !!!

Reafer Alston, Luke Walton, Jameer Nelson, Jordan Farmar, JJ Redick, Andrew Bynum !!


What a bunch of garbage.


Is that really all the NBA has to offer us ?? A couple of stars and a bunch of garbage players !!

(who else thinks Dwight Howard is not what he is cracked up to be ?? SuperMan ??... no )

Interesting that Pau Gasol (ugliest man in the league) played so well, where last year Garnett made him look like a big pussy .

quote:

Kobe won rings in 4 of 9 years so far this decade. So, did Shaq. It would be one of them.

To be fair, CalBuc, you kind of dealt a rigged hand here (not saying you did so on purpose). Tschmack referred to ERA and not DECADE.

Now, Duncan has won championships in 1999, 2003, 2005, and 2007 where (admittedly) this time span is ELEVEN YEARS or one whopping year more than a decade.

Duncan is past his prime, but if you closed the window at 2007, a case can be made that he is the better player within that time frame. Never as flamboyant, but so steady and with such an all around game. (Keep in mind who Kobe had with him for three of those championships - talk about dominating!)

For what it's worth, Barkley tabs Duncan as the top power forward of all time.

To summarize, I think on this one you are nitpicking and while I wouldn't insist on who the better player is, the verdict is not a decisive one in my book. In fact, not at all.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:
The Lakers also won two tainted championships in which one hold a rule change due to horrific, trainswreck, blind officiating called the "Horry" rule.

The championship that included the Game 6 win over the Kings was rigged. I think other NBA games were rigged as well, but I would allow a person to insist no others were.

I will not concede that game though.

Wow, was the fix ever in. I'll accept the asterisk and only allow Kobe three rings.

The "he had so and so" argument never holds water. Bird doesn't win without Parish and McHale, Magic doesn't win without Worthy and Kareem, and Michael doesn't win it all without Scottie and Grant.

Kobe is one the league's greatest ever players. Likeable or not, he is an all-time great.

BTW- Cal, your credibility is g-o-n-e in thinking KG and Bynum are even in the same area code...

quote:

None of the players you mentioned other than Duncan approach Kobe. Duncan was an excellent all-around player. I say that despite hating the Spurs. But, seriously, are you going to tell me Duncan was the player of the this decade? Kobe won rings in 4 of 9 years so far this decade. So, did Shaq. It would be one of them.

First off, you should hate the team that seems to always kick the crap out of the vaunted Lakers.

I also love the "Duncan WAS an excellent all around player" commentary. Are you really that much of a dimwit? Duncan is still a great player.

PS- I do think KG deserves to be mentioned in the same light as Kobe. 21/11 through his career, MVP honors, ring, 12x All Star, etc. I would say he's probably one of the 10 best big men of all time. He is certainly in the discussion as one of the best players of his era.

Tschmack,

I'm a dimwit?? Oh okay... Let's see, I am the one that claimed that Melo, Wade, and Paul are as good as Kobe? Yeah, okay...

I'm the one that claimed that KG (frickin KG???!) is one of the top ten big men EVER???? What the hell are you smoking?????????????????????

KG is a nobody and he would have always been a nobody except for that he was paired with two potential HOF'ers for a lucky year and PIERCE carried that team to the championship.



Music City,

I didn't say that Bynum is at KG's level yet. I said the Lakers were missing an important cog in the center of their defense and a STARTER. Is it just coincidence that Bynum and Gasol looked totally different against a stronger guy this year against Howard TOGETHER versus last year with Gasol alone against KG? Trust me, Bynum is big enough to have made a difference. How did the Lakers do against the Celtics this year? Oh yeah, that's right, ...with Bynum in the mix, an improved Ariza, and a heavier Gasol, they BEAT the Celtics TWICE this season.

Bynum makes a difference on defense and Gasol bulked up in the offseason at the team's request to be more effective this season. That answers PackDog's question too. You'll find that information in Gasol's exit interview on the Lakers website. So, no Bynum is not the player KG was last year but he would have made a difference in the Finals.


I'm going on record here to let you all know that the Celtics won't even make it to the Finals next year.

The scarier team if Artest stays in Houston is the Rockets. McGrady will be back and the point guard there ran circles around the Laker guards. We need to improve our depth at point guard. But, Fisher... I love you man!!!!



Phaedrus,

Okay, so who has been there longer? Kobe or Duncan? I guess if either one wins next year, than it's the answer to our question. Duncan is a guy that I respect for his all-around game but I don't think he was on defense what Kobe is on defense. So, I give the slight edge to Kobe there. I also give a big edge to Kobe for crunch time big shots made over Duncan.

How many big game winning last second shots do we remember from him? So, slight edge to Kobe. Oh yeah, Kobe was a much better free throw shooter too to close out games.

He's a nobody? OK genius, I guess I have to defer to your incredible basketball knowledge.



I'd also like for you to name me 10 other big men that are better than him, and no, Gasol and Bynum do not count

quote:

and PIERCE carried that team to the championship

He really carried them this year, didn't he? The main reason they didn't make it back was because of the "nobody" not being around.

quote:

Phaedrus,

Okay, so who has been there longer? Kobe or Duncan? I guess if either one wins next year, than it's the answer to our question. Duncan is a guy that I respect for his all-around game but I don't think he was on defense what Kobe is on defense. So, I give the slight edge to Kobe there. I also give a big edge to Kobe for crunch time big shots made over Duncan.

How many big game winning last second shots do we remember from him? So, slight edge to Kobe. Oh yeah, Kobe was a much better free throw shooter too to close out games.

Cal,

To cut to the chase, you are resorting to logical fallacies which are - well - fallacies.

The above sounds like a classic bait and switch. Present one argument, get swooshed, and respond by making up an entirely new argument and "winning" that one.

You "win" the new argument, which I have little disagreement with anyway.

On Garnett.

I am unsure I would put him Top 10 in the NBA foer big men. I don't think so. BUT, he's got to be Top 20 and that is not a criticism. Also realize he is a PF, so we need to lump in PF's - at least some of them.

Off the top of my head...

1. Wilt Chamberlein
2. Bill Russel
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Nate Thurmond (highly under-rated)
5. Hakeem Olajuwan
6. Walt Bellamy (another highly under-rated)
7. Patrick Ewing
8. Bob Lanier
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Moses Malone
11. Kevin McHale
12. Robert Parish
13. Tim Duncan
14. David Robinson
15. Karl Malone

and I am sure I am missing some.

quote:

Originally posted by phaedrus:
On Garnett.

I am unsure I would put him Top 10 in the NBA for big men. I don't think so. BUT, he's got to be Top 20 and that is not a criticism. Also realize he is a PF, so we need to lump in PF's - at least some of them.

Off the top of my head...

1. Wilt Chamberlein
2. Bill Russel
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Nate Thurmond (highly under-rated)
5. Hakeem Olajuwan
6. Walt Bellamy (another highly under-rated)
7. Patrick Ewing
8. Bob Lanier
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Moses Malone
11. Kevin McHale
12. Robert Parish
13. Tim Duncan
14. David Robinson
15. Karl Malone

and I am sure I am missing some.

Garnett is a PF, or even a hybrid F. Most on this list are Cs. It's a bad list.

Music City,

Tschmack said Garnett is one of the top ten BIG MEN ever to play the game. The insinuation was that he thinks Garnett is a center. Phaedrus correctly included centers and PF for that reason. Garnett is not one of the top ten centers, not one of the top ten forwards of all-time either way you cut it.



Tschmack,

Next year will show you why the Celtics would not have won with Garnett and will not win with him next year. Stay tuned...

By the way, are you going to tell me that Paul Pierce is not a better player than Garnett? Pierce is the heart and soul of this Celtic team. The way he goes, so go the Celtics.

In case you forgot, PIERCE was the 2008 FINALS MVP, not Garnett. Pierce was the guy that killed the Lakers in the Finals. Garnett was 18 points, 9 rebounds per game in the Finals. Yeah, top ten of all time numbers there.

I don't pretend to be a basketball genius but I know for a fact that Garnett is not one of the best 10 big men I've ever seen play basketball in my 45 years. Now, since you are probably mid-25, you probably never saw some of the men on Phaedrus' accurate list.

Add Elgin Baylor, James Worthy, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone, Julius Erving to that list... That's 20 men right there.

and Shaq?

quote:

KG is a nobody and he would have always been a nobody except for that he was paired with two potential HOF'ers for a lucky year and PIERCE carried that team to the championship.

Shaq carried Kobe, your point?

Artist,

You obviously did not watch the 2000-2002 Lakers. Kobe had 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists and 4 steals in Game 7 of the western conference finals in 2000 against Portland.

In a pivotal Game 4 against the Pacers in the 2000 Finals, Shaq FOULED OUT of the game and Kobe coolly sent the game to overtime and in OT, he scored 8 to lead the lakers to the win. Lakers won in 6 games but that performance turned the series.

In the 2000-2001 playoffs, kobe averaged 29 points, 7 rebounds, and 6 assists. Yeah, that's riding the coattails of Shaq?? Please....

In the 2001-2002 Finals, Kobe averaged 27 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists. Yeah, that's terrible stats...it was ALL SHAQ!

By the way, he became the YOUNGEST player in NBA history to win three championships.

Finally,....


I don't recall seeing a FAT SHAQ on this year's Lakers team. Do you??? Nobody carried that Lakers team. Shaq and kobe are equally responsible for those three first rings.

quote:

Originally posted by The Artist fka TD:

quote:

KG is a nobody and he would have always been a nobody except for that he was paired with two potential HOF'ers for a lucky year and PIERCE carried that team to the championship.

Shaq carried Kobe, your point?

Shaq carried Kobe to the first Title- totally dominant. But in the subsequent years, he did not stay in shape, did not do anything to improve him game, and Kobe was the driving force in those Championships. The Lakers also had outstanding role players in Rick Fox and later Robert Horry that were instrumental in surviving tougher challengers like Dallas, San Antonio, and Sacramento.

You think that not having a force instead the opposing to had to focus on is a reason why the Lakers won? Sheesh....

Yeah, I bet Tony Parker's, Ginobli's, and a host of others open looks were a direct correalation with having a stud like Duncan inside lead to Championship wins.

Root for a womanizing raper. Classess.

BTW, should be get into the phoney baloney shot allowed when the clock never started on Derrick Fischer's game winner?

Face it, the league wants the Lakers to win. It generates interest and money. No other teams star would've been allowed to throw two elbows in OT w/o fouls called let alone techincals like Raper Bryant did in Game 4.

So which is it, Timberlake? Shaq carried Kobe to 3 Titles or the league wants them to win?

I don't dispute the Fisher shot being bogus- there never should have been 0.4 seconds on that clock. I don't dispute the Timberwolves being jobbed out of the Finals when KG was there.

But all things being equal, you said Shaq carried Kobe to 3 Championships when the evidence after the first Title is contrary to your claim.

And despite your obvious hatred of Kobe, he is one the of the league's greatest players and will end his career as one the of the best ever.

The league does want the Lakers to be there. Are you even going to remotely argue something even dumber than Garrard and Schaub being better than what the NFC North has to offer?

My comments were that w/o Shaq the Lakers would've never won those 3 titles. They bought Shaq and having one of the biggest marketing tools in the league created "cheat-gate".

quote:

My comments were that w/o Shaq the Lakers would've never won those 3 titles.

That's not what you said. You said that Shaq carried them to 3 totles, which is stupid if you watched the game. It's an equally stupid thing to say that w/o Shaq they wouldn't have won- well no sh*t Sherlock- without Kobe they didn't and wouldn't have. Until Kobe came into his own, Shaq won nothing in LA. It can go both ways.

The point is that Kobe has proven to be a great player- an all-time great. His public mistakes aside, on the court he is as good as there has ever been.

Where did I say that Music? I said Shaq carried Kobe. Did I mention anything about 3 titles? Show me where. You like pulling this crap in all the other forums too.

I know reading is fundamental but you are taking the funda out of it.

But just so you and CalBuc should know.

http://www.nba.com/history/finalsmvps.html

Shaq was the Finals MVP all 3 of those years. So come on little boy. Tell me what else I can school you on tonight.

2000 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-2 victory over the Indiana Pacers and the franchise’s first NBA Championship since 1988. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 43 points, 19 rebounds in Game #1, 40 points, 24 rebounds in Game #2 and 41 points, 12 rebounds in Game #6.

2001 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 33.0 points, 15.6 rebounds and 3.40 blocks to lead the Lakers to a 4-1victory over the Philadelphia 76ers and the franchise’s second consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 44 points, 20 rebounds and five assists in Game #1, 28 points, 20 rebounds and nine assists in Game #2 and 34 points, 14 rebounds in Game #4.

2002 -- Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers
Averaged 36.3 points, 12.3 rebounds and 2.75 blocks to lead the Lakers to a sweep of the New Jersey Nets and the franchise’s third consecutive NBA Championship. O’Neal’s best Finals performances came at the Staples Center with 36 points, 16 rebounds and four blocks in Game #1, 40 points, 12 rebounds and eight assists in Game #2, 35 points, 11 rebounds and four blocks in Game #3.

I'll be waiting for you and Calbuc to get off the Kobe Schtick.

I'll admit that I didn't recall Shaq's numbers in the finals those other two titles, but I watched the games. Kobe was the best player on the floor.

Kobe did all the dirty work and filled the box score- this was instrumental in the Lakers winning the other two Championships. Steals, assists, guarding the other team's best backcourt player... Kobe did these things. Shaq couldn't even defend the pick and roll.

Kobe has been on the all-defensive team for the last 9 years, and 1st team in the last 6. Shaq has been on the all-defensive team just 3 times in his career, and never 1st team.

Do you deny that Shaq no longer prioritized his fitness after the first championship?

Do you deny that Shaq did not give superior effort every night after that first Title?

Do you deny that Shaq was traded away for these very reasons, and that these mentioned factors were instrumental in his trade to Miami?

Shaq was never "great" after that first title. He let Kobe do all the effort work, and he rode to glory. But he was exposed in the '04 Finals against DET.

Artist,

It's almost laughable now. You are twisting every which way in the wind. And this time, I am not the one calling you out. Music City is completely correct. Without Shaq OR Kobe, neither would have won a thing alone on those teams.

I was on the floor laughing when the Justin TimberLake of the Board says, "Come on little boy, let me school you more..." Tooo funny coming from ...well, you!

First of all, you display a lack of knowledge about NBA history and the greatest big men to play the game. Secondly, your argument about Kobe just went up in smoke because you might recall that KOBE won a championship now without Shaq. Third, none of us are defending Kobe as a person OFF the court. That does not change that he is one of the greatest players ever to step ON the court.

And you keep going in circles. Of course, Shaq helped the Lakers win those titles. So did Kobe. Look at the stats. They are too close to say ONE carried the other. They, in fact, won because they complemented each other so well. An inside and outside game is necessary to win the NBA championship. By the way, if Shaq is so great ALONE, then tell me what happened to the team in Orlando when Hakeem SCHOOLED Shaq in that series. It was not even close. Shaq had a in-prime Penny Hardaway, Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, and Horace Grant. SHAQ and the Magic got swept baby. And please don't tell me that SHAQ carried the Heat team to a title because we clearly saw that Dwayne Wade was the reason that team won. Shaq helped but if anyone carried that team, it was Wade. So, let's see. Kobe carries the Lakers to a title but Shaq never carried any team alone to a title. Hmmmmmmm....

Did Jordan ever win it alone? Did Duncan ever win it alone? Did Russell ever win it alone? Why hasn't LeBron won one yet? It takes at least 2-3 really good players Sherlock! This ain't tennis or golf!

Wilt Chamberlain in his prime was the most dominant player ever alone and he did not win a championship that year despite AVERAGING 50 points and 27 rebounds a game for the SEASON. Yes, that's right... THE SEASON! Jordan never approached that level of domination in a single season.

It takes 2 or 3 really good players kid! School's out so you're dismissed.